Hirhurim - Musings

Someone who studied in yeshivah in radin under the...

2007-12-24T04:01:00.000-05:00

Someone who studied in yeshivah in radin under the chofetz chaim told me that all the students in yeshivah tucked in their tzitzis!

r elyashiv in 'hearos to maseches sukkah' on the ...

2007-12-24T03:58:00.000-05:00

r elyashiv in 'hearos to maseches sukkah' on the gemarah that 'holchei derachim pturin min hasukkah'(daf 26a?) argues on r moshe, and says that someone on a 1 or 2 day trip is exempt from eating and sleeping in a sukkah.

I forget where, but I recently came across this wo...

2007-02-01T17:32:00.000-05:00

I forget where, but I recently came across this work cited in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. I cannot look it up right now, but if you email me at mikewinddale@gmail.com and remind me to look this up, I'll see the email and give you the exact location when I find it.

Shabbat shalom.

I just recently in my study came across Me'or Eina...

2007-02-01T17:27:00.000-05:00

I just recently in my study came across Me'or Einayim being cited by the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. And this halacha's only source cited was the Me'or Einayim. Off the top of my head I can't remember where in the Kitzur though. But I've been studying only about 20 pages a day in my approximately 800 page set, so that's about 1/40 of the Kitzur a day, and I know I came across this citation within the past few days, and I'm now on the last few chapters of the Kitzur, so it must be somewhere within about the last tenth of the Kitzur. I can't look this up now, but I'm telling you what I remember at the moment. Additionally, if you email me at mikewinddale@gmail.com and remind me to look this up, I'll try to look this up and I'll reply to your email (if you don't send me an email, I'll probably forget to look this up).

This is very interesting. I just happened to be looking at the Student's Guide, and saw this supposedly heretical work cited, and then I saw it in the Kitzur, and then I saw it while browsing your blog, all within 3 days if I remember correctly. Very peculiar...if I knew Hebrew I might think G-d was telling me to study this book lol.

Open Letter to R' Y. Adlerstein and R. G. Student...

2005-07-14T18:47:00.000-04:00

Open Letter to R' Y. Adlerstein and R. G. Student And all Slifkin Supporters
Please excuse the long-windedness

An open letter was issued on Hirhurim urging all kiruv workers and mechachim who counsel students with science and Torah issues, to lobby the signatories of the ban on Slifkin's books to repeal their signatures. They should be implored to repeal for the sake of not consigning virtualy every one in the field to being beyond the pale of Orthodox Judaism by the implication of banning Slifkin .
Slifkin himself asserts that he joins the ranks of all Orthodox Jewish scientists in attempting to reconcile Biblical and Talmudic accounts of events and things with the overwhelming scientific consensus of how things ought to be.

This identification of Slifkin with the Torah and Science community which, by association, makes him worthy of support, needs to be carefully analyzed...
The story of Gerald Schroeder as documented by R' Ari Kahn and also posted on the same Hirhurim thread, is a case of "nimtza teshuva be'tzido" and can shed much light by way of comparison.

Points to ponder:

A. Why were no other Torah and Science volumes -of which there are over a dozen- also marked for teaching heresy? One book published as late as 2004 even contains the notorious citations of R' Avraham ben HaRambam and the rest of the Rationalist school!
B. Why did Gerald Schroeder leave the Beis Din of R' Moshe Sturnbuch with a mere browbeating for his novel scientific interpretation of the Ramban in Bereishis but no cherem on his 3 books?
C. Why did Schroeder publish his books with Bantam as opposed to Feldheim?
D. Why did R' Yaakov Weinberg insist that non-mainstream yet valid ideas NOT be taught in yeshiva for fear of weakening Emunas Chachamim?

Here are two crucial differences I suspect are at work here.

One- Slifkin doesn't just dispassionatly cite various sources to address a given conflict like your standard Torah And Science anthology. There are strong undercurrents of attitude and conviction in his writing. The sensitive reader gets the distinct impression that Slifkin doesn't really think it's possible for any well established, scientific analysis of the physical world to be brought into question. He takes empirically verified Science and matches it up with an anti-empirical assertion of Torah or Chazal, and... luckily for Yiddishkeit there is always an obscure or unconventional opinion that must be used to rescue the Torah. There must be a way to rationalize the problematic Torah assertion either somewhat empirically or, at last resort, allegorize it - to save from the scientific juggernaut. It's simply not reasonable in Slifkin's mind to believe that what Torah really means could defy our scientifically confirmed understanding and rational grasp.

This posture that Slifkin sets up in his books is unhealthy and dangerous to export.
If you 1) on the one hand, read too much knock-your-socks-off science and 2) DON’T realize how much scientists don't know, 3) on the other hand DO NOT have deep enough appreciation for the depth, subtlety and breathtaking beauty of a chiddush of Reb Chaim- which, 4) by multiplying orders of magnitude, gives one a sense of awe contemplating the towering intellects of Chazal,- 5) making scientists look like mice in laboratory trying to sniff their way around a universe that they don't really understand, then 6)you are not approaching the conflicts correctly at all.

My guess is the signatories sensed such an inferiority complex and severe lack of credit given to Chazal in the books. And despite all the introductions and protestations to the contrary, they fear the overall effect of these books could eventually enthrone empiricism over mesorah in the reader's mind.

The next observation of the difference between Slifkin and his predecessors it admittedly touched with conspiracy theory but it has enough kernels of truth to sound off alarms in the intuition of the Gedolim.

Permit me to suggest that to the anti-science, anti-university mindset, the overall impression made by the books, and now by those who consistently support them, is an encroachment on sacred territory.
It can be seen as an attempt, perhaps subconsciously, to dislodge the establishment's insulating hold on the general frum public. Long suffering sophisticates among the chareidi ranks, jaded by the unworldly and intolerant who occupy the top of the Daas Torah pyramid, found in Slifkin more than answers to conflicts. Most of those answers were on the books for decades! But with Slifkin - the innocuous yeshiva bochur in his twenties, with no forbidden degrees in physics, no stuffy technical language, really just one of the chevra who has done a lot of interesting reading, was the perfect Trojan horse. Use Feldheim instead of Bantam. Use eye-catching illustrative covers instead of formal scientific symbols and dull lettering. Use fancy layout and fonts to really spark curiosity and enhance reader-friendliness and enjoyment. The chareidi public would finally mature from the dogmatic mantras of non-engagement with the world of science and empiricism and get a little harmless education of the natural world.
The Gedolim and Roshei Yeshiva picked up this agenda as being uniquely Slifkin's out of all the rest to suspect him as a "meisis u'maydiach". All the others were either careful enough or boring enough to just be available on a need to know basis to help the ba'alei teshuva and their teachers, or the nebachs who read too much. This situation was perfectly safe and acceptable, and what Rav Yaakov Weinberg zt"l insisted on.
It is only Slifkin and his supporters who are now easily identified as university trained intellectuals, albeit some chareidi, who are being marked for daring to enlighten their benighted yeshivish brethren.

This portrait may seem a bit fantasy-laden, but it warrants consideration And here's the rub: now it is they who are ruining it for the rest of us who were perfectly satisfied with the status-quo. Thanks to Slifkin et. al. who refuse to be humbled, all the positive contributions of the Torah and science genre are being put in jeopardy. Instead of lobbying the Gedolim who will never say Slifkin is suddenly Kosher as-is, why not lobby Slifkin to cut out whatever is offensive and leave in whatever the mekarvim and mechanchim have been using before this whole mess started.

In conclusion, why must this be made into an all or nothing struggle? Why insist on republishing the books as-is? Here’s the proposal: swallow your ego, retract the books in their current form entirely, and streamline them as a collection of scholarly essays. Get proper scientists' peer review, leave out all literary flourishes, fancy covers or chareidi publicity, and Shalom Aal Yisrael. Oh, and for heaven's sake,don’t forget to leave out all the Kabalah.
Any questions?

Thanks for the article. Fascinating.

2005-07-08T18:50:00.000-04:00

Thanks for the article. Fascinating.

Instead of asking to protest to Rav Malkiel Kotler...

2005-07-07T20:18:00.000-04:00

Instead of asking to protest to Rav Malkiel Kotler and the rabbis, why don't we all follow Rav Aaron's path (Rav Aaron HaCohen that is) and try to bring the two sides to meet together. It is never too late.
The original emails I received said that the offer to meet the rabbis was extended without allowing sufficient time to respond. So why not reschedule. All of these American rabbonim are accessible. Try.
If you are in a position to bring members of the two sides together without sharp words, you will be marbeh shalom ba'olam.
A guten chodesh.
Rabbi Yosef Wikler
Editor, Kashrus Magazine

I'm not sure I understand your position. You say t...

2005-06-23T02:13:00.000-04:00

I'm not sure I understand your position. You say that it is wrong to defend Torah by attacking/rejecting science and it is also wrong to defend Torah by reconciling it with science. Then what third option is left out there? You mentioned that you deal with the problem by simply ignoring it (using the lack of expertise in scientific subjects as an excuse).

I happen to think that this approach is wrong even for the non-scientist. It is certainly unacceptable for one with scientific training. Simply saying "Science seems to be conflicting with Torah, but I choose to not explore the issue further" would be creating 'cognitive dissonance' in that person's mind.

As to the view that I believe is correct and that I personally hold: Overall, there is no conflict of Torah and science, since the latter's domain is making empirically testable and observable claims about the universe, while Torah's aims are different. Using this definition of "science" there are no conflicts.

As an example, let's look at what many people perceive to be an area where Torah and science overlap and make conflicting claims: the age of the world. Strictly speaking, the way the world was created is not a scientific theory, since it talks solely about the past and makes no testable predictions. In fact, the two statements

"Life on Earth was created randomly and evolved into humans"

and

"The world was created in a complete state, with artifacts (of periods/civilizations that never existed) buried under the Earth"

are completely equivalent since neither makes testable predictions. The only reason we usually would give preference to the first one is due to a meta-scientific argument of Occam's razor. And saying that a theory fails Occam's razor does not falsify it.

Finally, even if we were to reconcile these theories about the past with what the Torah says about history and world origins, there are many directions we might take. One is interpreting the Torah as speaking figuratively, another as looking at the literal text from a different angle (e.g. Dr. Shroeder's relativistic approach), accepting occurence of miracles at some points in history, and so on.

I am shocked that the above author sets forth the ...

2005-06-21T16:25:00.000-04:00

I am shocked that the above author sets forth the dangers and demonstrated consequences of merely following the letter of the law, and then proceeds to offer the following argument that does just that.

It has yet to be demonstrated that, even if the author is absolutely correct that modern agricultural practices are blatant violations of tsa'ar ba'alei hayim, the resulting food becomes prohibited.

What happened to going beyond the letter of the law? What happened to being a decent human being and not callously disregarding the overwhelming suffering of billions of animals unlucky enough to have been born into a factory farm?

Lest you have no compassion for billions of animals suffering for our profit and pleasure, your concern for the perception of Orthodox Jews should be sufficient to merit your opposition rather than endorsement of such horrors.

Please see the websites in the above post and ask yourself whether this is how G-d intended we treat these animals entrusted to our care.

http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/
2005-06-21T16:19:00.000-04:00
http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/

http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/veal/veal_fact_sheet.html

Holy moly, you sure do have a lot on your plate. ...

2005-05-24T14:27:00.000-04:00

Holy moly, you sure do have a lot on your plate. If you could get to the bottom of the problem sooner than later, it would certainly not hurt.
regards
Relationship Advice
B.Maloney

I know this is months old, but I just discovered t...

2005-05-09T13:49:00.000-04:00

I know this is months old, but I just discovered this post. There were two things that popped out I wanted to comment on. Disclaimer: I am an Orthodox Jew, not particularly learned (yet!) and a PhD scientist working at a major medical center.

First, your quote:

"Science, the rebbeim pronounced authoritatively, is only made up of theories to explain facts. Those theories are inherently biased to the scientists' worldview and scientists are a bunch of heretics and atheists. Scientific theories come and go, so why should we believe any particular one?"

My comment: This is exactly the position of the postmodernist deconstructionists! I'm very surprised to see such a position advocated by those such as myself who believe that there absolute truth exists.

My other comment is that "Creation scientists" are scientists only if they accept that empirical facts could force them to give up their ideas regarding the literal truth of the Biblical creation account. I suspect that few would be willing to do so.

i find it hard to beleive that the non-religious j...

2005-05-09T06:55:00.001-04:00

i find it hard to beleive that the non-religious jews in america are keeping connected because of the orthodox...
it seems more like they stay connected despite the orthodox.

i find it hard to beleive that the non-religious j...

2005-05-09T06:55:00.000-04:00

i find it hard to beleive that the non-religious jews in america are keeping connected because of the orthodox...
it seems more like they stay connected despite the orthodox.

Dear Gil,

You have eruditely identified a h...

2005-05-07T23:19:00.000-04:00

Dear Gil,

You have eruditely identified a halachic principle, namely not to adopt heterodox practices.

However this is just one of many halachic principles.

Another principle you could examine is the principle "it is a time to act for Hashem - they (the Rabanan) have abolished your Torah" - see for example Brachot 63B.

I believe this the principle on which R' Eliezer Berkovitz based some of his ideas in his book "it is not in Heaven".

This may explain why he did not consider women's participation to be forbidden on the basis of other heterodox practices.

Regards
Tommy

The most compelling argument I have ever seen is r...

2005-05-06T20:34:00.000-04:00

The most compelling argument I have ever seen is regarding the prohibition on adam harishon not to eat meat in gan eden. I admit this hasn't been the most pressing matter for me, but I'd be interested in hearing more on it.
Just a small point - while there is not mitsva of simkha on shabat, there is, as far as I have learned, on the khagim, which seems to be a mitva of basar v'yayin according to most poskim. This leads makes it very ironic that people who have meat on shabat are much more lax about it on khag (because hey get sick of the meat, seems to be the usual culprit), and of course on shavuot, when the opposite seems to be a better practice.

I'm a different David. I'm not sure if you meant ...

2005-05-06T20:26:00.000-04:00

I'm a different David. I'm not sure if you meant that no Beta Israel converted, but I met some kharedi ones, so that's definitely not true. It seems to me that the most likely story is that they are the descendants of Jewish mercenaries (of the completely ignorant type who were posted at Elephantine) or traders (as in India or Burma/Myanmar), meaning there had to be inter-marriage. How does R' Ovadya Yosef say there's no mamzerut under the p'sak of radva"z? I understand (sorta) if he says back then they were Jews and there were no mamzerut issues, but how does that mean there's been no intermarriage or mamzerut since then? I appreciate some insight into this.

I've been keeping up with the Daf Yomi and just ra...

2005-05-03T17:51:00.000-04:00

I've been keeping up with the Daf Yomi and just ran across a Baraita in Berachos 61b in which Rabbi Akiva tells a parable in which a fox says that his ancestors dwelled with fish! Do any later commentators say anything regarding this passage? Perhaps Rabbi Akiva had a mesorah regarding evolution that has since been lost?

It looks like you differ from most Chareidim, or f...

2005-04-15T14:22:00.000-04:00

It looks like you differ from most Chareidim, or from some people's perception of Chareidim, on the issue of what Rabbis to respect or include in the category of those whom you respect. But on a lot of practical halacha (an Eruv, for instance or women's voices) you folow the Hareidim.

Maybe in short, You believe in daas Torah but you beleive that there is Da'as Torah in Yeshiva University.

I think that we should not be so quick to be throw...

2005-03-23T16:07:00.000-05:00

I think that we should not be so quick to be throwing out titles so quickly. It's very impressive to insult those that we don't agree with, but at the end of the day, "kol ha'posel b'mumo posel." A little mutual respect can go a long way farther than name calling and degrading talmidei chachamim.

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
How coul...

2005-03-17T13:05:00.001-05:00

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
How could you overlook what the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a says on the next page in paragraph 5?

http://www.otzar770.com/cgi-bin/imgserv.exe/convert?ilFN=C:\HOME\ocr_files\main\sihot\23\B0000395.tif&ilIF=G&ilSC=40

Doesn't the English translation in "Sound a great Shofar" seem correct in light of that especialy since it is intended to give a simplified synopsys?
Not to mention the fact that the Rebbe King Moshiach Shlit"a explained it this way on many other ocassions and even explained that in truth Moshiach ben Dovid can even come on Shabbos and other times when the Talmud seemingly says it's imposible.
And to criticize the Lubavitchers for not having enough respect for the Rebbes words over this is simply silly.
Yechi haMelech haMoshiach!

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
How coul...

2005-03-17T13:05:00.000-05:00

"I am afraid that the purpose of this undertaking ...

2005-02-24T19:27:00.000-05:00

"I am afraid that the purpose of this undertaking is not to infuse the spirit of Torah she-be-al peh into the new English version .. and I cannot see how we, representatvies of the Torah she-be-al peh, can lend our names to such an undertaking..."
Seems to me that Rabbi Soloveitchik has clearly followed his reasoning expressed in his prohibitory ruling regarding Orthodox membership in rabbinical bodies, where positions that are outside the very broad spectrum of Torah interpretation could/would be adopted by a group with members who do not see themselves as sharing the beliefs of earlier guardian-formulators of
Torah she-be-al peh .
Nisan

It is also extremely interesting in light of the f...

2005-02-24T11:57:00.000-05:00

It is also extremely interesting in light of the fact that R. Soloveitchik's Rebbi, was R. Chaim Heller who devoted a considerable amout of effort to the critical theory or higher critisism

In regard to Rav Schwab. I can personally testify ...

2005-02-15T12:28:00.000-05:00

In regard to Rav Schwab. I can personally testify that in a Dvar Torah delivered to his Kehilla on Shabbos breishis, probably inn 1980, the Rav suggested that before the completion of the six days of Creation, Hashem's clock was at vaiance with what later would become the human clock. As a result, events that would take a literal six days in Hashem's reckoning would take millions or billions of years in human terms. This ould allow room for the development of the world and universe as postulated by science. Evolution was not mentioned. After the six days, the two clocks were synchronized.

Rabbi Moshe Berlove

Cincinnati Ohio

Hirhurim - Musings

Someone who studied in yeshivah in radin under the...

r elyashiv in 'hearos to maseches sukkah' on the ...

I forget where, but I recently came across this wo...

I just recently in my study came across Me'or Eina...

Open Letter to R' Y. Adlerstein and R. G. Student...

Thanks for the article. Fascinating.

Instead of asking to protest to Rav Malkiel Kotler...

I'm not sure I understand your position. You say t...

I am shocked that the above author sets forth the ...

http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/ 2005-06-21T16:19:00.000-04:00 http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/veal/veal_fact_sheet.html

Holy moly, you sure do have a lot on your plate. ...

I know this is months old, but I just discovered t...

i find it hard to beleive that the non-religious j...

i find it hard to beleive that the non-religious j...

Dear Gil,You have eruditely identified a h...

The most compelling argument I have ever seen is r...

I'm a different David. I'm not sure if you meant ...

I've been keeping up with the Daf Yomi and just ra...

It looks like you differ from most Chareidim, or f...

I think that we should not be so quick to be throw...

By the grace of G-dShalom uBrocha!How coul...

By the grace of G-dShalom uBrocha!How coul...

"I am afraid that the purpose of this undertaking ...

It is also extremely interesting in light of the f...

In regard to Rav Schwab. I can personally testify ...

http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/
2005-06-21T16:19:00.000-04:00
http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/

http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/veal/veal_fact_sheet.html

Dear Gil,

You have eruditely identified a h...

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
How coul...

By the grace of G-d
Shalom uBrocha!
How coul...